Barrel twist and imparting spin

My intent is NOT to argue or imply making gel’s dangerous but examine the potential of using barrel twist instead of this ‘hopup’ magnus method to improve accuracy range without the need to stress gearboxes with the multitude of ‘upgrades’ out there. From what I understand a properly twisted barrel of 7.5mm at 260fps will out preform any smooth bore. By twist I don’t mean firearm grade twisting but a smooth polished barrel scored .5mm deep in a slight twist enough to ‘cyclone’ the gel into a spin.

These inner barrels shoot STRAIGHT. They have an extremely predictable, flat and straight flight trajectory. Where standard hop up will cause the BB to gently curve up before dropping, TWIST (or cyclone) inner barrels will cause the BB to go extremely straight for an even further effective range before dropping."
Full article here
https://www.reddit.com/r/airsoft/comments/3yj2b6/airsoft_rifled_barrels_are_they_worth_a_damn/

3 Likes

I, and I’m sure many many others, have had this same thought. But in my theorizing, I doubt the gels would handle the rifling and probably shred. However i am surprised that it even works on the bb spherical projectiles at all - still a very fascinating concept to me :slightly_smiling_face: and definitely worth testing out sometime.

1 Like

I don’t think it applies to round objects.
No matter how you spin a gel, as it exits the barrel it will go one way or another.
If the twist is 180 deg out it will just pull down, decreasing range like putting a hop up on upside down.
if its 90 or 270 out it will go left or right.
a hop up is the best way of making the gel spin the way we need it to so as to increase range and lift on the gel.
Rifling of a barrel is there to stop the bullet from tipping end over end like a football player kicking a torpie.

2 Likes

I disagree Matt… the most accurate revolver I have is an 1859 Ruger Old Army, cap and ball (round lead ball) black powder … it is a .451 round ball in a rifled barrel… at 25 meters, it has a tighter group than my G34 … so I would argue (and can prove) that rifling does work quite effectively on round projectiles… Others have shot at black powder comps, with round ball and smooth barrels… they have about the same accuracy (or lack of) as our toy blasters.

A gel ball, however… is too easily distorted so will likely be compressed in the barrel, so it may have a flat front and concave back (in the barrel being pushed by the air behind it) … and once it leaves the muzzle, it probably springs back to being round, causing aerodynamic irregularities.

That is why, I believe, there is a number of FPS that is most accurate in a gel blaster…which from reading about others, as well as my blasters, it seems that 280 - 300 fps is probably the most accurate… I have also read that people chasing 400 FPS and above, have the punch, but seem to get less and less accurate as the FPS increases.

My guess would be that around 280 FPS, the gel stays round in the barrel. Also, gel balls are not regular enough in size, so some fit the barrel better than others, and the gels are also very slippery… so any rifling with ridges high enough to spin the gel on its axis, would have to be so long, the rifling would slice the gel open, as Daegis said.

Gel blaster balls are also very light weight, so they are easily influenced by drag and wind… plus, you can not always guarantee that only one gel ball is allowed into the T piece at a time… sometimes 2 try to load and the 2nd one gets chopped in half, impeding the next loading cycle… and bits of gels spitting out of the muzzle, sometimes accompanied by a full gel ball, other times just the bits…

These are toys, after all :upside_down_face:

3 Likes

I disagree with Matt also. Gel gel will rotate around its central axis to travel conceivably straighter.

The consistency of the gel I do see as a failing point. The possibility of damage to the gel and subsequent messing with its trajectory or complete failure to stay in one piece.

It’s be an interesting thing to try though.

1 Like

I know from paintball that even distribution of weight in a gel or paint pellet is a huge factor in how straight it flys. I had a paintball that was obviously very inconsistent in the weight distribution come out of the barrel doing a 6" diameter corkscrew though the air. It was on an overall straight trajectory though. It went directly the direction I was aiming. By an absolute fluke it also hit the person I was shooting at as he ducked behind a tree. The timing was right for it to go around the tree and hit him in the head. Total WTF moment for everyone who saw it.

1 Like

Yes, even the path a projectile takes leaving a real, rifled barrel, is not laser straight… a proj. often flies in a cork screw pattern… which is really, REALLY obvious when one flies a long distance very close to the ground … often it strikes the ground at some point well before the target…

That is why alot of big bore target shooters I know use range finders… because they know for certain distances, they have to aim a certain direction because they know where in the cork screw the target is…

As I have said in other threads, with all f-arms or gel blasters especially… they are all, to a degree, inaccurate… but once you know HOW they shoot, one can adjust the aim knowing the charactoristics of the flight of the proj.

The proof of this, is, as I said in another thread… if you blindfold a rifle shooter, leed him to the shooting position, hand him a gel blaster then get him to ‘assume the position’ (looking thru the scope) then remove his blindfold … and get him to have a crack at a target using the scope (or open sights) … he will likely be no where near the target…

If he adjusts the sights so he can hit the target once in a while, if you look where the sights have the barrel aiming… it will be nowhere near where the barrel is actually pointing…

Gel blasters are notoriously ‘inaccurate’ … what we need to chase is ‘consistant inaccuracy’… so, once we learn our blasters ‘charactoristics’… we know at what distance where to point the barrel… because we know, for example, the gel will go low and quite straight, then rise up quite sharply (hop up), then fall… turning a little at the end with the wind… or turn the hop up slightly to one direction or the other, to make the gel go around the tree :grin:

1 Like

I was just trying to imagine anything other than backspin on the gel. imagine looking down the barrel the gel is spinning from 12 to 6 o’clock towards you with the hop ups we have now and the gel risers because of the back spin.
Putting rifling in the barrel will just make the gel spin say 3 to 9 o’clock for example, which will then make the gel swing to the right and thats if its spinning 3 to 9 o’clock towards you. if comes out spinning 3 to 9 but turning away from you then it will swing left.
Just turn the hops ups you use 90 deg and see what happens.
I’m not arguing that a real gun that shoots much faster fps than a gel blaster is accurate to certain distance shooting round projectiles.
If I could throw a shopping trolley at 1000fps then its gonna go straight for 50m no probs, its what goes on after that 50m and when the speed starts to drop is when rifling and the spinning projectile kicks in makes it go that bit further by stabilizing it.

1 Like

Also a round bullet would weigh a lot more than 0.2g gel ball so the effects cant really be transfered from real bullets to 0.2g water filled gels that deform and are inconsistant at a much slower fps

2 Likes

Teheh wasn’t Angie Jolie in that movie
All very valid points and I appreciate the informed input from seasoned players and modders

I have to agree with Matt on rifling for round objects being less viable than backspin…

Rifling standard bullets improves accuracy because the spinning provides stability to a cylindrical projectile, thus keeping it pointed forward and preventing it from tumbling end over end. Since a spherical projectile cannot tumble, it’s not as important…

Yes, rifling round projectiles will improve the accuracy, but that is only because you are introducing some form of normalcy (i.e. it’s not spinning a different way every time it leaves the smooth barrel)

The rifling on muskets was originally developed to fire Minie’s (picture below) and the Twist rate is usually stupidly low too (something like 1:42+ compared to a normal rifle’s 1:7+)
I bet smooth barrel musket smiths would opt for backspin if it was easy/safe to do for a ‘powder-operated, round-projectile dispenser’…
220px-Minie_Balls

Anyway, even if it was possible to rifle the gels and keep them intact, with the FPS limits we’re dealing with, I don’t think it’s as viable an option as backspin which gives distance (rifling doesn’t) and probably the same accuracy/consistency rifling would provide…

Geez you guys want to complicate and over engineer a simple concept.

For gel balls, just find that sweet spot with ball size and barrel diameter and make sure your barrel is made of the most friction less material.

Then put your hopup on and fine tune.

1 Like

images%20(66)

4 Likes

Lol looks like where I work.

1 Like

Of the 3 places I’ve worked in my short existence, it feels like everywhere is the same… Bustling with incompetence and laziness (we all have the same work stories… Just different titles used for the individuals involved)

1 Like

A gold Bruisemaster barrel which is 7.1 and milkies will deliver near on as good as gets for a gell balls best final velocity.

3 Likes

:hammer: + :wrench: = :gun:

3 Likes

Your right there @spectre720, everything we do we need to alter or manufacture.

There is nothing wrong with mastering and improving our devices.

I have actually thought about this subject a lot. (Because hop ups are annoying) i have on my bench a prototype barrel design that I have been working on with a modified bore that hopefully doesn’t need a hop. Unfortunately at the moment it remains untested. But I definitely believe it is plausible.

7 Likes